Posted on December 12, 2007 01:51
Steve Sensenig:
pinakidion, even though Scott has fired me, I wanted to take a moment to respond to you! ;)
Thank you for your gracious response.
Using your numbers:
1. I'm not positive that your take on Luke 4 takes the context of that comment of Jesus fully into consideration. In the context, he is talking about the fact that a prophet is not welcome in his own town. The point of the comments about Elijah are that there were miracles done for people outside of Israel. Why? Contextually, because Elijah was not welcome in Israel. It's not talking about people in Israel asking for miracles or healing, and God denying their request.
Experience is a hard thing to argue with, and I am trying to be careful with my words. I, too, have prayed for healings/miracles that never happened. But I can say this, based on my own experience: I was always taught to pray (and did, in fact, pray) along the lines of, "God, if it is your will to heal here..." with the net effect that I was never fully convinced that it actually was. I think that culturally, we experience a whole lot more unbelief than we even realize.
For example, when James says that a sick person should call for the elders, etc., he doesn't say, "And if God chooses to, they will be healed." He says simply, "And they will be healed." Yet, I hear this passage explained away by saying, "This really means that if it's God's will..." Why can't we just take what it says?
There is a very well-known quadriplegic who has stated with certainty that they don't want God to heal them because they are afraid they would not be as close to God. Then that person is held up as an example by others of someone that God has "chosen not to heal". Huh? This person has said they don't want to be healed!! Is it any wonder that they aren't?
A friend of mine spent some time in Africa. She reported when she came back some pretty phenomenal things. She said that she was actually afraid to talk about them here in the US because people were cynical about what she shared. We asked her why she thought those things were happening there, and she said, "The people there expect these things. There's no question of whether or not they will happen. They just believe." That seems to match biblical accounts, in my opinion.
With regard to Romans 9, again, I think there is a very important context to that highly-debated passage. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have nearly all the answers on Romans 9, but again, as I've tried to point out, why base our belief on something that is not clear? Romans 9 is not referencing physical healing at all! It's talking about salvation, etc. James 5:14-16 talks specifically about healing. The gospels talk specifically about healing. And none of those passages that speak specifically about healing ever give any "loopholes" that I can see with regard to what God desires to do, and what God chooses to do when asked. As I challenged in my last post, show me one place where someone asked for healing and God said "no".
Might Romans 9 have bearing on the subject? Maybe! :) But like you said on number 2, I'll say to you. Unless you first deal with the very clear passages regarding healing, I don't think we can adequately pull Romans 9 into the discussion.
2. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at. I was not saying that healings or miracles never come without faith. Rather, I was saying that those appear to be the exception, rather than the rule. My question was addressed to those who challenged my use of "faith" in the discussion at all by saying that gives credit to man (a common false dichotomy in theological discussions). I wasn't trying to ignore your point, but just felt that your point lies outside the scope of the point I was trying to make. Does that make sense?
Also, I never pointed this out in my ramblings on this subject, but when I studied healing in the gospels and Acts, the "faith" aspect only ever seems tied to physical healing. Casting out demons seemed to be handled differently than physical healings in that permission was never sought, or faith never questioned with regard to whether or not Jesus or the disciples were going to cast them out. It's impossible to ask a demon-possessed person if he wants to be free, and it's pretty futile to ask a demon if he wants to be cast out! ;)
3. You said you weren't really responding to my question, so I don't need to clarify anything here.
Scott, I'm SO sorry for the length here. I keep trying to keep it brief, but there is so much to be said.