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	<title>Comments on: Progress?</title>
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	<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/</link>
	<description>Musings on Christianity</description>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2950</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2950</guid>
		<description>You reminded me that I shared something about Calvin last June that is a bit in line with what you are saying. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kansasbob.com/2009/06/reign-of-calvin.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.kansasbob.com/2009/06/reign-of-calvi...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You reminded me that I shared something about Calvin last June that is a bit in line with what you are saying. <a href="http://www.kansasbob.com/2009/06/reign-of-calvin.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kansasbob.com/2009/06/reign-of-calvi&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2916</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2916</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s definitely a provocative one.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If violence is your only metric then I could see how you&#039;d think we are better off over all.  That&#039;s certainly valid.  I am far less likely to have my life come to a short and brutal end thanks to war (or perhaps due to any other reason).  And for me personally life is pretty peachy.  So I may be better off but are we as a species better?  Not so sure.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Unchecked power is bad, yeah I think that&#039;s a big key.  Democracy is one way of keeping power in check.  It&#039;s not perfect but as you say if we reverted to a monarchy things would get ugly.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And I agree with you re: Religious Democracies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#39;s definitely a provocative one.  </p>
<p>If violence is your only metric then I could see how you&#39;d think we are better off over all.  That&#39;s certainly valid.  I am far less likely to have my life come to a short and brutal end thanks to war (or perhaps due to any other reason).  And for me personally life is pretty peachy.  So I may be better off but are we as a species better?  Not so sure.</p>
<p>Unchecked power is bad, yeah I think that&#39;s a big key.  Democracy is one way of keeping power in check.  It&#39;s not perfect but as you say if we reverted to a monarchy things would get ugly.</p>
<p>And I agree with you re: Religious Democracies.</p>
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		<title>By: sidfaiwu</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2915</link>
		<dc:creator>sidfaiwu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2915</guid>
		<description>I thought you&#039;d get some blog use from that quote.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A couple of things I&#039;d note: &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If you want a less controversial example than Germany use Stalin&#039;s Russia.  His regime was explicitly secular and violently oppressed religious people because of their religion (and just about everybody else for a host of other reasons too).  He didn&#039;t like religion competing for loyalty with The State.  China is a good example for some of the same reasons though I think their human rights abuses are exaggerated.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;I’d like to think that humanity in general and Christians in particular are better off than we were a hundred, two hundred, a thousand years ago. Frankly, we’re not.&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sidfaiwu.com/blog/index.php/2007/06/the-decline-and-fall-of-violence/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I disagree&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Reading your response, I notice something in common with the theocracies of the past (and present for that matter - see Islamic nations) and the authoritarian secular regimes.  The commonality is unchecked power.  The reason we are better off today (in terms of the likelihood of having violence inflicted upon oneself) is because of the rise of democracy in the world.  Democracy is designed to keep power in check.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This changes the question to, &quot;In the absence of a democracies, would governments revert to committing violence against their own members?” I think almost all of us would answer that with a definite &#039;yes&#039;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Another question then comes to mind, &quot;Is a religious democracy stable, or even possible for that matter?&quot;  I think it&#039;s possible - Turkey is the country that comes to mind as something close to this.  But is it stable?  In a democracy, the ultimate authority belongs to the people.  In theistic religions, the ultimate authority belongs to a god or gods.  What happens when the people want something that is in opposition to religious doctrine?  Does the people&#039;s will become law or does the religious doctrine trump the will of the people?  In the former case, it&#039;s not really a &lt;i&gt;religious&lt;/i&gt; democracy, in the latter case it&#039;s not really a democracy at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought you&#39;d get some blog use from that quote.</p>
<p>A couple of things I&#39;d note: </p>
<p>If you want a less controversial example than Germany use Stalin&#39;s Russia.  His regime was explicitly secular and violently oppressed religious people because of their religion (and just about everybody else for a host of other reasons too).  He didn&#39;t like religion competing for loyalty with The State.  China is a good example for some of the same reasons though I think their human rights abuses are exaggerated.</p>
<p>&#8220;I’d like to think that humanity in general and Christians in particular are better off than we were a hundred, two hundred, a thousand years ago. Frankly, we’re not.&#8221; <a href="http://www.sidfaiwu.com/blog/index.php/2007/06/the-decline-and-fall-of-violence/" rel="nofollow">I disagree</a>.</p>
<p>Reading your response, I notice something in common with the theocracies of the past (and present for that matter &#8211; see Islamic nations) and the authoritarian secular regimes.  The commonality is unchecked power.  The reason we are better off today (in terms of the likelihood of having violence inflicted upon oneself) is because of the rise of democracy in the world.  Democracy is designed to keep power in check.</p>
<p>This changes the question to, &#8220;In the absence of a democracies, would governments revert to committing violence against their own members?” I think almost all of us would answer that with a definite &#39;yes&#39;.</p>
<p>Another question then comes to mind, &#8220;Is a religious democracy stable, or even possible for that matter?&#8221;  I think it&#39;s possible &#8211; Turkey is the country that comes to mind as something close to this.  But is it stable?  In a democracy, the ultimate authority belongs to the people.  In theistic religions, the ultimate authority belongs to a god or gods.  What happens when the people want something that is in opposition to religious doctrine?  Does the people&#39;s will become law or does the religious doctrine trump the will of the people?  In the former case, it&#39;s not really a <i>religious</i> democracy, in the latter case it&#39;s not really a democracy at all.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2862</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 21:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2862</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll retract what I said about Luther and Wesley.  With Calvin I was thinking of his role in the execution of Severetus (a heretic).  I think there were some other things he did while at Geneva that could be considered persecution, but I was unable to find anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;ll retract what I said about Luther and Wesley.  With Calvin I was thinking of his role in the execution of Severetus (a heretic).  I think there were some other things he did while at Geneva that could be considered persecution, but I was unable to find anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2857</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2857</guid>
		<description>Not sure that I am following Scott. Are you saying Luther, Wesley and Calvin were &quot;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&quot;? Some details might help. Guess I get that the RC church had inquisitional activities like that but not sure what you are saying about the reformers actions and how it shaped their theologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure that I am following Scott. Are you saying Luther, Wesley and Calvin were &#8220;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&#8221;? Some details might help. Guess I get that the RC church had inquisitional activities like that but not sure what you are saying about the reformers actions and how it shaped their theologies.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2856</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 01:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2856</guid>
		<description>These days, no.  Back in the day, Luther, Wesley, Calvin, et al all engaged in some level of persecution and were themselves persecuted..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These days, no.  Back in the day, Luther, Wesley, Calvin, et al all engaged in some level of persecution and were themselves persecuted..</p>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2855</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 00:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2855</guid>
		<description>The only folks that I know of that are &quot;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&quot; these days are the rigid fundamentalists. And while they are certainly vocal I do not think that &quot;modern theology is founded&quot; on rigid fundamentalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only folks that I know of that are &#8220;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&#8221; these days are the rigid fundamentalists. And while they are certainly vocal I do not think that &#8220;modern theology is founded&#8221; on rigid fundamentalism.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2854</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 23:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2854</guid>
		<description>Problem is that a lot of people who were doing this are those that much of our modern theology is founded on.  That doesn&#039;t make what you said wrong, but if you are right then a lot of our churches are built on sinking sand (which in and of it self might be right).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problem is that a lot of people who were doing this are those that much of our modern theology is founded on.  That doesn&#39;t make what you said wrong, but if you are right then a lot of our churches are built on sinking sand (which in and of it self might be right).</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2859</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 23:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2859</guid>
		<description>Thanks Alisa!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Alisa!</p>
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		<title>By: Alisa Hope Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2858</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa Hope Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2858</guid>
		<description>I agree with this. We are doing the exact same stuff just with different methods. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Very thought invoking post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with this. We are doing the exact same stuff just with different methods. </p>
<p>Very thought invoking post!</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2823</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2823</guid>
		<description>These days, no.  Back in the day, Luther, Wesley, Calvin, et al all engaged in some level of persecution and were themselves persecuted..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These days, no.  Back in the day, Luther, Wesley, Calvin, et al all engaged in some level of persecution and were themselves persecuted..</p>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2822</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2822</guid>
		<description>The only folks that I know of that are &quot;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&quot; these days are the rigid fundamentalists. And while they are certainly vocal I do not think that &quot;modern theology is founded&quot; on rigid fundamentalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only folks that I know of that are &#8220;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&#8221; these days are the rigid fundamentalists. And while they are certainly vocal I do not think that &#8220;modern theology is founded&#8221; on rigid fundamentalism.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2820</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2820</guid>
		<description>Problem is that a lot of people who were doing this are those that much of our modern theology is founded on.  That doesn&#039;t make what you said wrong, but if you are right then a lot of our churches are built on sinking sand (which in and of it self might be right).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problem is that a lot of people who were doing this are those that much of our modern theology is founded on.  That doesn&#39;t make what you said wrong, but if you are right then a lot of our churches are built on sinking sand (which in and of it self might be right).</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2821</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2821</guid>
		<description>Thanks Alisa!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Alisa!</p>
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		<title>By: Alisa Hope Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2819</link>
		<dc:creator>Alisa Hope Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2819</guid>
		<description>I agree with this. We are doing the exact same stuff just with different methods. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Very thought invoking post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with this. We are doing the exact same stuff just with different methods. </p>
<p>Very thought invoking post!</p>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2818</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2818</guid>
		<description>I think that &quot;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&quot; are all evidences of people that are wrapped up in fear and insecurity - folks that know little of loving God or loving people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that &#8220;burning astronomers, executing heretics and persecuting their own members&#8221; are all evidences of people that are wrapped up in fear and insecurity &#8211; folks that know little of loving God or loving people.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward G. Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2817</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward G. Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2817</guid>
		<description>Fewer people die of preventable things.  In a number of countries around the world where people used to be killed or enslaved just for having dark skin, they no longer do.  A smaller percentage of the world&#039;s population is starving than in the past.  Fewer women are denied rights around the world than they used to be.  Fewer children are abused.  And on and on.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;However, not only could you take issue with some of the facts I cited because we don&#039;t have accurate measurements from 100 or more years ago, you could cite facts that would sound like things have gotten worse.  This is not an argument I&#039;m interested in the outcome of because I can&#039;t see the point.  If things are worse, we need to make them better.  If things are better, we still need to make them better.  And the discussion about HOW we do that is going to focus on details of what to do and what not to do, not whether or not things have gotten better in general.  We can learn from what we&#039;ve done wrong, but again, that is a detail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fewer people die of preventable things.  In a number of countries around the world where people used to be killed or enslaved just for having dark skin, they no longer do.  A smaller percentage of the world&#39;s population is starving than in the past.  Fewer women are denied rights around the world than they used to be.  Fewer children are abused.  And on and on.</p>
<p>However, not only could you take issue with some of the facts I cited because we don&#39;t have accurate measurements from 100 or more years ago, you could cite facts that would sound like things have gotten worse.  This is not an argument I&#39;m interested in the outcome of because I can&#39;t see the point.  If things are worse, we need to make them better.  If things are better, we still need to make them better.  And the discussion about HOW we do that is going to focus on details of what to do and what not to do, not whether or not things have gotten better in general.  We can learn from what we&#39;ve done wrong, but again, that is a detail.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2816</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 20:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2816</guid>
		<description>So what measuring stick do you use to determine whether we are better or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what measuring stick do you use to determine whether we are better or not?</p>
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		<title>By: Edward G. Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2815</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward G. Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2815</guid>
		<description>I think the answer is no, we won&#039;t ever reach that place.  But I personally don&#039;t have a problem if we never achieve perfection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the answer is no, we won&#39;t ever reach that place.  But I personally don&#39;t have a problem if we never achieve perfection.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2814</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:23:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2814</guid>
		<description>I certainly agree with Einstein in regards to the bomb.  But as our capacity for good increases I&#039;d argue so our capacity for evil increases.  As I said, yes we are better off, but will we ever reach that place where we are as good as we can ever be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly agree with Einstein in regards to the bomb.  But as our capacity for good increases I&#39;d argue so our capacity for evil increases.  As I said, yes we are better off, but will we ever reach that place where we are as good as we can ever be?</p>
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		<title>By: Edward G. Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/progress-2/comment-page-1/#comment-2813</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward G. Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=1012#comment-2813</guid>
		<description>This quote from Einstein gets to the core of this - and it works whether or not you believe in God.  &quot;The release of nuclear energy has not created new problems.  It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving existing ones.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Possibly I got the exact words of the quote wrong, but the point stands.  People will kill each other for all sorts of reasons.  Any organized and powerful group is likely to at some point wind up justifying their own direct or indirect killing because groups are made up of people and people have that tendency.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That does not mean we aren&#039;t better off now.  Not everyone and not everywhere, but certainly on the whole.  As Einstein noted, though, we now have more capability to destroy each other.  Whether it&#039;s the Bible or some other book or just some generic sense of right and wrong, anything that helps us as individuals contribute to avoiding that is a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This quote from Einstein gets to the core of this &#8211; and it works whether or not you believe in God.  &#8220;The release of nuclear energy has not created new problems.  It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving existing ones.&#8221;</p>
<p>Possibly I got the exact words of the quote wrong, but the point stands.  People will kill each other for all sorts of reasons.  Any organized and powerful group is likely to at some point wind up justifying their own direct or indirect killing because groups are made up of people and people have that tendency.</p>
<p>That does not mean we aren&#39;t better off now.  Not everyone and not everywhere, but certainly on the whole.  As Einstein noted, though, we now have more capability to destroy each other.  Whether it&#39;s the Bible or some other book or just some generic sense of right and wrong, anything that helps us as individuals contribute to avoiding that is a good thing.</p>
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