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	<title>Comments on: Morality and Righteousness</title>
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	<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/</link>
	<description>Musings on Christianity</description>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2828</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2828</guid>
		<description>Yeah persuasion is good.  Convincing is also good.  Attacking/complaining is rarely good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah persuasion is good.  Convincing is also good.  Attacking/complaining is rarely good.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2829</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2829</guid>
		<description>The sea change that (hopefully) comes as part of being a believer isn&#039;t enough though.  You and I and Chris would likely all disagree on this or that law.  So we need to look for that common ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sea change that (hopefully) comes as part of being a believer isn&#39;t enough though.  You and I and Chris would likely all disagree on this or that law.  So we need to look for that common ground.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2803</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:27:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2803</guid>
		<description>Yeah persuasion is good.  Convincing is also good.  Attacking/complaining is rarely good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah persuasion is good.  Convincing is also good.  Attacking/complaining is rarely good.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2804</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2804</guid>
		<description>The sea change that (hopefully) comes as part of being a believer isn&#039;t enough though.  You and I and Chris would likely all disagree on this or that law.  So we need to look for that common ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sea change that (hopefully) comes as part of being a believer isn&#39;t enough though.  You and I and Chris would likely all disagree on this or that law.  So we need to look for that common ground.</p>
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		<title>By: Kansas Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2801</link>
		<dc:creator>Kansas Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2801</guid>
		<description>The issue with morality by law or some other codified system is that it does not deal with inner morality. Jesus confronts it head on in the sermon on the mount. A law that says do not murder does nothing to prevent hate. IMO that is why a person needs an inner change of morality via a spiritual rebirth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue with morality by law or some other codified system is that it does not deal with inner morality. Jesus confronts it head on in the sermon on the mount. A law that says do not murder does nothing to prevent hate. IMO that is why a person needs an inner change of morality via a spiritual rebirth.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Walker</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2798</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2798</guid>
		<description>I do think that at the very least you ought to be making an effort to legitimately persuade others that your way of thinking is indeed the right one.  Squawking and ad homineming people to death doesn&#039;t help, so I agree with you on that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think that at the very least you ought to be making an effort to legitimately persuade others that your way of thinking is indeed the right one.  Squawking and ad homineming people to death doesn&#39;t help, so I agree with you on that point.</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2797</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2797</guid>
		<description>No, actually we shouldn&#039;t.  We must just bide our time and wait for [strikethrough]those Neanderthals to di...[/strikethrough] public opinion to swing in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, actually we shouldn&#39;t.  We must just bide our time and wait for [strikethrough]those Neanderthals to di&#8230;[/strikethrough] public opinion to swing in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2796</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2796</guid>
		<description>&quot;As a society I think all we can strive for and hope to succeed in is to pass laws that serve to provide a common moral code that we can agree on in the majority.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So we shouldn&#039;t squawk when homosexual marriage is voted down by popular (viz. majority) vote?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As a society I think all we can strive for and hope to succeed in is to pass laws that serve to provide a common moral code that we can agree on in the majority.&#8221;</p>
<p>So we shouldn&#39;t squawk when homosexual marriage is voted down by popular (viz. majority) vote?</p>
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		<title>By: spiritualtramp</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2795</link>
		<dc:creator>spiritualtramp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2795</guid>
		<description>[b]First, although not immediately related, what do you mean here by &quot;God&#039;s law&quot;? Are we reflecting on natural law? Ceremonial law? Civil law? Moral law (a more specific iteration of natural law)?[/b]&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would say I&#039;m referring to God&#039;s law as revealed in the Bible, the Decalogue primarily, though certainly any of God&#039;s moral laws as laid out in the Bible would apply.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The purpose of any man made law is I&#039;d say to restrain people from harming society or one another (and more often themselves, though I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m completely on board with those sorts of laws).  If we as Christians want to take God&#039;s laws, say the notion that being a homosexual is immoral, and incorporate that in our own man made laws as Uganda has done (though I&#039;m not sure if their reasoning is religious) then I think we&#039;re on shaky ground.  While that would I suppose be an opportunity for a second use of the law, is there a place for that in man&#039;s laws?  Is the purpose of a law on the books to point to righteousness?  I don&#039;t think it should be.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I certainly think that there is some overlap of God&#039;s righteousness as revealed in the Law with our own civil laws.  They agree on murder and theft and the like, and I think that&#039;s &quot;Utilitarianism&quot;?  If so, then yes.  As a society I think all we can strive for and hope to succeed in is to pass laws that serve to provide a common moral code that we can agree on in the majority.  Where that lines up with Biblical laws/righteousness I think is just a bonus.  If our purpose is to try and make people &quot;de facto&quot;Christians morally then I think that&#039;s where we go wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[b]First, although not immediately related, what do you mean here by &#8220;God&#39;s law&#8221;? Are we reflecting on natural law? Ceremonial law? Civil law? Moral law (a more specific iteration of natural law)?[/b]</p>
<p>I would say I&#39;m referring to God&#39;s law as revealed in the Bible, the Decalogue primarily, though certainly any of God&#39;s moral laws as laid out in the Bible would apply.</p>
<p>The purpose of any man made law is I&#39;d say to restrain people from harming society or one another (and more often themselves, though I&#39;m not sure I&#39;m completely on board with those sorts of laws).  If we as Christians want to take God&#39;s laws, say the notion that being a homosexual is immoral, and incorporate that in our own man made laws as Uganda has done (though I&#39;m not sure if their reasoning is religious) then I think we&#39;re on shaky ground.  While that would I suppose be an opportunity for a second use of the law, is there a place for that in man&#39;s laws?  Is the purpose of a law on the books to point to righteousness?  I don&#39;t think it should be.</p>
<p>I certainly think that there is some overlap of God&#39;s righteousness as revealed in the Law with our own civil laws.  They agree on murder and theft and the like, and I think that&#39;s &#8220;Utilitarianism&#8221;?  If so, then yes.  As a society I think all we can strive for and hope to succeed in is to pass laws that serve to provide a common moral code that we can agree on in the majority.  Where that lines up with Biblical laws/righteousness I think is just a bonus.  If our purpose is to try and make people &#8220;de facto&#8221;Christians morally then I think that&#39;s where we go wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/2009/12/morality-and-righteousness/comment-page-1/#comment-2794</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spiritualtramp.com/blog/?p=988#comment-2794</guid>
		<description>&quot;Christians are in such a hurry to take God’s righteousness (as best we understand it) and make it our morality. If we stopped there it might not be bad. Unfortunately, we try and cloak others with it by making our own laws some reflection of God’s Law. We might claim to be doing the world a favor by making it that much more difficult to be “immoral”. We think we are encouraging people to live the right way. We want our country to benefit from the laws of God as it has been passed down to us. We want the world to see the benefits of living in a Christian country with Christian laws.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would love to see this unpacked. A number of questions surface in my mind when considering this paragraph in any context, but especially in this particular context.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First, although not immediately related, what do you mean here by &quot;God&#039;s law&quot;? Are we reflecting on natural law? Ceremonial law? Civil law? Moral law (a more specific iteration of natural law)? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, what is the purpose of any law? You quoted Romans 3:20, which in its context is likely referring to the &quot;moral law&quot; as best summed-up by the 10 commandments, but specifically speaks towards what has been called the  &quot;second use of the law&quot; in the parlance of Biblical scholarship (Second use of the law - making error known and defining right/wrong for the purpose of directing the unrighteous to the righetous one). Historically, there have been distinctions between this &quot;use&quot; of the law and additional &quot;uses&quot; (First use - serving to restrain behavior; Third use - serving as a guide for proper living). Is there any overlap of these three uses of the &quot;law&quot; (as understood here) with our current civil understanding of &quot;law&quot;?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Third, you seem to be leaning against what would fall under the &quot;Second use of the law&quot; category from above. Fair enough from my perspective. You do state, however, that &quot;What is righteousness? Well I suppose it could be defined as Biblical or Godly morality.&quot; Given this definition, what other basis do we have for law so that we aren&#039;t &quot;[trying to] cloak others with it by making our own laws some reflection of God’s Law&quot;? Is this where we invoke a categorical imperative? Is there such a thing? Do we seek a pure utilitarianism (and concede that it doesn&#039;t truly provide &quot;morality&quot; but simply an answer to &quot;what is better&quot;)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Christians are in such a hurry to take God’s righteousness (as best we understand it) and make it our morality. If we stopped there it might not be bad. Unfortunately, we try and cloak others with it by making our own laws some reflection of God’s Law. We might claim to be doing the world a favor by making it that much more difficult to be “immoral”. We think we are encouraging people to live the right way. We want our country to benefit from the laws of God as it has been passed down to us. We want the world to see the benefits of living in a Christian country with Christian laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>This.</p>
<p>I would love to see this unpacked. A number of questions surface in my mind when considering this paragraph in any context, but especially in this particular context.</p>
<p>First, although not immediately related, what do you mean here by &#8220;God&#39;s law&#8221;? Are we reflecting on natural law? Ceremonial law? Civil law? Moral law (a more specific iteration of natural law)? </p>
<p>Second, what is the purpose of any law? You quoted Romans 3:20, which in its context is likely referring to the &#8220;moral law&#8221; as best summed-up by the 10 commandments, but specifically speaks towards what has been called the  &#8220;second use of the law&#8221; in the parlance of Biblical scholarship (Second use of the law &#8211; making error known and defining right/wrong for the purpose of directing the unrighteous to the righetous one). Historically, there have been distinctions between this &#8220;use&#8221; of the law and additional &#8220;uses&#8221; (First use &#8211; serving to restrain behavior; Third use &#8211; serving as a guide for proper living). Is there any overlap of these three uses of the &#8220;law&#8221; (as understood here) with our current civil understanding of &#8220;law&#8221;?</p>
<p>Third, you seem to be leaning against what would fall under the &#8220;Second use of the law&#8221; category from above. Fair enough from my perspective. You do state, however, that &#8220;What is righteousness? Well I suppose it could be defined as Biblical or Godly morality.&#8221; Given this definition, what other basis do we have for law so that we aren&#39;t &#8220;[trying to] cloak others with it by making our own laws some reflection of God’s Law&#8221;? Is this where we invoke a categorical imperative? Is there such a thing? Do we seek a pure utilitarianism (and concede that it doesn&#39;t truly provide &#8220;morality&#8221; but simply an answer to &#8220;what is better&#8221;)?</p>
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