Christian Pledge

chrflag.gif As many of you know we’re homeschooling our kids. I got home yesterday and my lovely bride asked me if I cared if the kids said the Pledge of Allegiance and the Pledge to the Christian Flag. For those of you that don’t know the latter:

I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe.

The former I had no problem with. You may find it jingoistic or object to the “under God” part. I know it’s a later addition but I still like it. Anyway this is about the Christian one. I told her that it made me uncomfortable. It smacked of idolatry. I mean who decided that this “Christian flag” stood for the Kingdom? And should we pledge allegiance to it?

Then again, should we as Christians pledge allegiance to the American flag? Again I have no problem with it, but it’s a good question to ask. Where should our allegiance lie? With God first, I’d say and then country. So having said that is a modified pledge to God in order? I did say that I thought it would be great if she led the kids in a group prayer first. That never hurts.

What say you? The floor is open to talk about either pledge and whether pledges in general are good or not.

  • Scott
    Hi Cindy! As I said before, who decided that this "Christian flag" stood for the Kingdom? If you want that or need that in your life then that's fine I suppose. And I don't need to say a pledge to reaffirm the dedication I feel. If I did feel the need I'd probably go with something like the Apostle's creed which isn't really a pledge so much as a statement of belief. Again, if you need/want that I think that's fine. It's just not for me.
  • cindy
    the christian flag is a symbol to remind us of our dedication to GOD. by saying a pledge you are reafurmming this dedication.
  • I have no allegiance to the Christan flag. Its a piece of fabric.
  • Scott
    "It really depends on the description of heaven and hell given. From what I've heard, neither place sounds desirable."
    I can understand that, given your perspective.
    "Also, the belief that it is just to deny someone life and liberty of any type based on what that person believes is inconsistent with American principles."
    If one believes treasonous things (enough to act on them) then no it's not inconsistent. Merely to believe such things isn't a problem, though so you may have a point.
    "It renders the belief that America is based on Christian principles absurd on its face."
    I believe that America is based on certain principles that Christians in the 18th century had. Some of those were good and some of them were very, very bad.
  • "Hey I've known atheists who've said that if I'm right they'd rather be in Hell."

    It really depends on the description of heaven and hell given. From what I've heard, neither place sounds desirable.
    "But it's not exclusive... Rather, the offer is made to everyone without exception"

    Yet the reality is that you know, and more importantly God knows that a vast majority of humanity will not accept the offer. This is mostly because they believe it's not a true, but a fabricated offer. Almost as often, they believe they have a different, but true offer.
    My point is that regardless if the offer is available to all, the fact that the punishment for failure to accept is loss of life and liberty is still abhorrent. It would be like the United States throwing everyone who voted for a losing presidential candidate in prison. Everyone had the same opportunity to vote for the 'correct' candidate so it's only fair, right?
    Also, the belief that it is just to deny someone life and liberty of any type based on what that person believes is inconsistent with American principles. It renders the belief that America is based on Christian principles absurd on its face.
  • "So it's just fine with everybody, a privilege even, that the pledge implies that followers of different religions and non-religionists deserve neither liberty nor life?"
    Even if we're agreed that the "liberty" and "life" are spiritual, the question really asks whether it's okay that Christianity is exclusive in its claims. And the answer to that is, well, yes. The Bible does make exclusive claims, in the sense that Christ gives life and liberty to all who believe, and doesn't give them to those who haven't believed. But it's not exclusive in the sense of "Ha ha, we've got this and you can't have any!" Rather, the offer is made to everyone without exception: "There's plenty of liberty and life to be had, and here's how you get it. Come have some!"
    To those who say "Well, that's fine for you, but I choose to seek life and liberty this way instead," Christianity says, "Okay, that's your privilege. But it's not going to work."
    As for the Christian flag and its pledge...I do have trouble with it. Flags are adopted by governments, and the governing Authority in the kingdom of God hasn't announced any such adoption that I'm aware of. This flag has been created and chosen by groups of people--and I suspect they did so in order to avoid letting kids think their ultimate allegiance is to be to their country. Since children understand tangible things sooner than intangibles, this makes some sense; and yet the Second Command should caution us against creating these tangible things in the first place, no matter how noble our intent.
    If we must create statements of conviction, may I suggest that's already been done? One example: "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ...."
  • Scott
    Didn't say it makes it better. It is what it is. Hey I've known atheists who've said that if I'm right they'd rather be in Hell. If I'm right I'll feel sorry for them. In fact I already do.
  • I'm sorry, I was referring to the Christian pledge, not the American one. This portion: "...with life and liberty to all who believe."
    the Christian Pledge isn't talking about temporal life or temporal liberty.

    That makes it better? Sure your interpretation makes the pledge compatible with democracy, but that's just your interpretation. Furthermore, it highlights the most abhorrent aspect of Christianity - the belief that vast majority of humanity is not going to receive life and liberty (in the non-temporal sense) but instead get eternal punishment.
  • Ben

    B13, most of the Founding Fathers were Deists (Franklin, Jefferson for sure)...as was John Locke...so, no, that isn't at all what this country is based on.


    Anyways, the Pledge of Allegiance was written in the late 1800's by, OH NOES!!, Christian Socialists! The "Under God" bit was added in the 50's. It's hilariously complicated.


    I don't know why...but that christian flag reminds me of something I'd seen associated with White Supremacy or something...could be wrong and don't feel like googling...


  • I mean who decided that this "Christian flag" stood for the Kingdom? And should we pledge allegiance to it?


    That's the problem I always had with the Christian Flag idea. And it makes me wonder about other flags ...

  • b13
    sidfaiwu... why would that leave out other religions? One nation under God does not imply "my God" or "your God"... but I feel that it is what the USA was built on.
  • Scott
    And the life and liberty in the Christian Pledge isn't talking about temporal life or temporal liberty.
  • Scott
    We were discussing the American Pledge not the Christian one (I think).
  • So it's just fine with everybody, a privilege even, that the pledge implies that followers of different religions and non-religionists deserve neither liberty nor life?
  • Kansas Bob
    Good point Scott - it is a priveledge not an obligation to say the pledge.
  • TerminusVox
    I don't feel completely as ease with it. The only time I remember ever saying it (or for all I know another, similar pledge) was at Vacation Bible School or at extended Youth or Choir camps. All the same I'm not troubled by it but I wouldn't really see the need to teach it to my own children in my own house.
  • b13
    The pledge to the stars and stripes is one made as an American and it represents what this nation was and is.
    I agree with your objection to pledging to a Christian flag and it seeming to be an idol. I get offended when Christians parade around with statues and tack money to them as well as kissing the statues feet while wailing to the heavens. To me it just doesn't seem right.
  • Scott
    Sid, regarding allgiance to God first, Jesus says that the first command is to love God and the second to love your neighbor. He of course doesn't make any strong statements (other than perhaps render unto Ceasar...) about country. So you're both right and wrong it seems.
    Pink, yeah thats another good point, about using this as a means to exclude other Christians. I don't think it's a big deal either I just don't see the point of making my kids say it. I don't see a clear benefit and too much cause for confusion.
    And thankfully Bob we get freedom whether or not we pledge. I'd say it (and if I'm home when she does this portion of her school day I will say it) but I won't question the loyalty of those who don't and I'm sure no one here would either.
  • Kansas Bob
    Great thoughts on a great topic Scott. I remember attending a naturalization ceremony a number of years ago for newly sworn in American citizens. Afterward I thought that many citzens would probably not say those words of renouncing former countries and pledging allegiance to America.
    I don't take issue with our pledge of allegiance.. people have sacrified their lives for our freedom.. we benefit from the blessings of that freedom.. IMO pledging allegiance to the republic for which the flag stands (under God) comes with the blessings of that freedom.
    -Bob
  • Any kind of pledge is usually for members of the group instead of the object of the pledge.
    I'm sure there's someone for whom this will help him or her value God above country. For me, though, it sounds more like a way for one person to say to another, "Are you willing to take this pledge?" with the implication that any REAL christian would certainly take the pledge.
    Having said that, I don't think it's that much of a big deal. I wouldn't take it, but I wouldn't begrudge someone that did.
  • The Christian Flag. Let's see, the red-white-blue color combo, it's general layout, and the pledge's resemblance to the American Pledge of Allegiance betrays it's ethnocentric origins. That aside, the exclusionary last two words of the pledge makes the pledge repulsive. The implication being that non-believers are worthy of neither life nor liberty. Of course this is perfectly inline with what Christians think that God believes. This is one reason I could never reconvert.
    Woops! I'm not answering your questions.
    "...should [you] as Christians pledge allegiance to the American flag?"
    Pledging allegiance isn't the same thing as worshiping. We, as Americans, are allies with the British, but we certainly don't worship them. So as far as the prohibition against worshiping false idols, I think your wife is in the clear.
    Then again, there is Matthew 5:34-35. I guess it depends on how close 'pledging' is to 'swearing'.
    "Where should our allegiance lie? With God first, I'd say and then country."
    I'd say fellow humans first. After all, according to your beliefs, didn't God come to earth to serve man and not to be served (Matthew 26-28)? Next, I'd go with family. Then maybe country, if it proves itself worthy and not to the exclusion of other, similar countries. After all, what really makes the U.S. any better or worse than, say, England? As long as civil liberties are valued by the culture and protected by the government, I don't care. Next, one should have allegiance to one's college football team. Or other sports team, I supoooose. Compared to nationalism and sectarianism, such allegiance is harmless and fun.
    "So having said that is a modified pledge to God in order?"
    Is a pledge to God even necessary? From what I understand of Christianity, all that is required is acceptance of Jesus as The Christ/Messiah/Savior. I doubt that God would even desire allegiance from humans. What possible benefit could 'He' derive?
  • TerminusVox

    I don't feel completely as ease with it. The only time I remember ever saying it (or for all I know another, similar pledge) was at Vacation Bible School or at extended Youth or Choir camps. All the same I'm not troubled by it but I wouldn't really see the need to teach it to my own children in my own house.

  • cindy

    the christian flag is a symbol to remind us of our dedication to GOD. by saying a pledge you are reafurmming this dedication.

  • I have no allegiance to the Christan flag. Its a piece of fabric.


  • "So it's just fine with everybody, a privilege even, that the pledge implies that followers of different religions and non-religionists deserve neither liberty nor life?"


    Even if we're agreed that the "liberty" and "life" are spiritual, the question really asks whether it's okay that Christianity is exclusive in its claims. And the answer to that is, well, yes. The Bible does make exclusive claims, in the sense that Christ gives life and liberty to all who believe, and doesn't give them to those who haven't believed. But it's not exclusive in the sense of "Ha ha, we've got this and you can't have any!" Rather, the offer is made to everyone without exception: "There's plenty of liberty and life to be had, and here's how you get it. Come have some!"


    To those who say "Well, that's fine for you, but I choose to seek life and liberty this way instead," Christianity says, "Okay, that's your privilege. But it's not going to work."


    As for the Christian flag and its pledge...I do have trouble with it. Flags are adopted by governments, and the governing Authority in the kingdom of God hasn't announced any such adoption that I'm aware of. This flag has been created and chosen by groups of people--and I suspect they did so in order to avoid letting kids think their ultimate allegiance is to be to their country. Since children understand tangible things sooner than intangibles, this makes some sense; and yet the Second Command should caution us against creating these tangible things in the first place, no matter how noble our intent.


    If we must create statements of conviction, may I suggest that's already been done? One example: "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ...."

  • b13

    The pledge to the stars and stripes is one made as an American and it represents what this nation was and is.


    I agree with your objection to pledging to a Christian flag and it seeming to be an idol. I get offended when Christians parade around with statues and tack money to them as well as kissing the statues feet while wailing to the heavens. To me it just doesn't seem right.

blog comments powered by Disqus
«
»